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Tuesday, February 11, 2014

I'm Baaack!

Are you still saying "Happy New Year" to some members of your church? 

Well, I know the readers of this blog have been wondering where I have been and what has been going on...So Happy New year to you too! 


I have taken on some new duties, responsibilities and the schedule has been heated up...I decided with all that is happening to take somewhat of a break from writing, but Oooooohhhhh my...don't think for a second that I have not been busy examining the changes within out community and nation with plenty of insight from the Lord on what is happening both in the church and within society...There is plenty to fight, advocate and stand up for and God and his people are certainly on the move. 


So Much To Pray For...So Little Time

Since my last post in Nov. of 2013, much has happened...We have probably had the most extensive winter than we've seen in years, and in some cases American history...Our poor folk in Atlanta can't function with a couple of inches of snow on the ground and would probably go off the map if 4 to 6 inches of snow fell...Current expectation is that an inch of ice will continue to paralyze the South. We are certainly praying for all them that were injured and for the families of those who lost their lives in the most recent storm and for the safety of them that are preparing for another round of winter. 

I know that there is a great deal of upheaval in the world. We have a civil war in Syria, the advancement of the Palestinians who have never had a nation or been a people, and all kinds of international uprisings and such the like. 

Then, there is the advancement of the homosexual agenda in America both through the courts and by this President and the Democratic Party in general...
Is there ANY REASON that a believer in Christ should vote democratic in the next Presidential election? 
I can't think of ONE THING that the Democrats have done and stand for that represent my interest or the interests of most Americans that I know....I actually can't think of anything that the democrats believe in that attracts me as a Black man with a family and the head of my household. Not ONE! Certainly the Republicans aren't exempt or just get a pass either...They have done and are doing their fair share of damage too...Well maybe that's just me....

Isn't it special that the only way that the homosexual agenda can advance is through the courts and by weak legislatures who overlook the will of the people? We all understand that the "will of the people" can be wrong and that "might" does not necessarily make right. People, through their "might" can choose a path that disenfranchises groups of people. I dare say that slavery is one of those kind of things. Noone understands this sort of sentiment better than those who have studied and lived through the Civil Rights era. However, what we are talking about is normalizing and ultimately endorsing "behavior" as opposed to inherently obvious diversities that cannot be worn off or changed through behavioral modification or by any other method. 

Look at it this way, Black cannot be "silenced" nor suppressed and it is obvious for many to see who is Black and who is White...How a person has sex or who a person loves, cannot be known until a person acts upon their feelings or inclinations. This is a vast and marked difference which makes all the difference in the world. This is forever why the fight for sexual acceptance will never been in the same league as the fight for racial parity and acceptance. 

Back to politics...Look at it, in almost every situation where gay normalization has been before the PEOPLE either by referendum or some other public vote, (not the sick legislatures who violate the will of the people whom they have been elected, commissioned and charged to represent,) gay normalization has been rejected. Yet, legislators continue to pass laws in favor of the homosexual agenda, for fear of being demonized and shamed publicly. In most cases, the demonization doesn't come from their elected base...it comes from organizations that claim to stand for "human rights" such as the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) and Lambda Legal and such like who, from a distance, seeks to shame those who don't hold their values. 

Standing for something, may cost popularity, but this is America and taking and making a stand is a courageous thing to do and something that should be done at all costs when that stand is for truth and righteousness. 

What of Sochi?

This whole attempt to "shame" can be felt around the world. I believe that if we look close enough we will find that HOMOSEXUAL advocates proliferated the lie that Sochi would be the worst and most dangerous Winter Olympics filled with terrorism...I am not so enamoured that I look beyond the atrocities of Russian Communism, however, separated from that, I believe that homosexual advocates deliberately tried to instill fear and even sabotage the games in general. Why? Because Russia (as I said, criticize the Communists all you want) had enough NERVE to stand and condemn homosexuality as a lifestyle and as a human right in their country.... For that I say KUDOS RUSSIA!....As former KGB leader President Putin expressed, no one is trying to lock anyone out, no matter their sexual preference or practice, but the proclivity of a person doesn't change society and neither will it change their laws. Do what you do out of the public eye. I believe that after years of decline, Russia understands that whatever society is allowed to practice, so is society and so goes society. Although I can't say that the Church has had any influence on the governmental position on the issue, I do know that the Russian Christian church has been on an upswing. I can only pray that that upswing works according to God's word and brings liberation and peace to millions. 

It seems as if no one was intimidated by America insulting the Russian's by sending Billie Jean Lesbian King as an American representative to a country that doesn't allow the open practice of homosexuality. This was a shameful and disrespectful act and only shows a lack of character that has seemed to embrace this country's elected leadership....Like they said on Fat Albert, the President's actions were like, school on Sunday...NO CLASS! This is and will continue to be an important issue I'm sure.  

What Of Religion In America?

The religious front is filled with all sorts of action over the last few months. From folk eating grass "in the name of the lord" (their lord- NOTHING to do with the true and living God) to all sorts of new debates over the compatibility of religion and science one can expect that nothing has slowed down in this so called "scientific age of enlightenment"....

This debate is even commonplace on America's most watched TV shows. While watching a recent Cop show, a character stated an atheist theme song that "faith is believing in what is irrational while claiming rationality" I couldn't believe my ears at first. I said, wait a minute...faith has nothing to do with irrational belief...(except for in the mind of a caveman). A simple proof of that is that we BELIEVE that folk have minds and can and will change or act or follow and outlined path of behavior that is set before them...we BELIEVE that prisons will cause criminals to reconsider therefore curbing crime, we BELIEVE that our friends will come to our rescue when we are really in need. Are any of those "beliefs" all of which remain to be proven, irrational? Simply put, faith has nothing to do with irrationality. Rather, rank and ultra skepticism displays itself to be irrational. Having or needing a proof for what already is, IS an irrational approach to nearly anything and everything. 

Example, do we need a proof as to why a car engine starts when it is built properly? Then further, do we hold that because we can explain how the engine works, that it has not been built? To come to an understanding of how something functions, and then to believe that because we understand it, that there are no higher principles at work, is an irrational position and presumption. These sort of things are irrational belief systems in action, and sentiments of this sort exist among many of the modern atheists and God haters...Yes, they claim they don't hate God, because they "claim" he doesn't exist, but we KNOW the truth... They are HATERS! Sins have blinded their eyes and filled their hearts with hatred against the one that gives them both breath and life to display their hatred...So sad...so true!

Then What Of The Church?

Now, to be fair, there is still plenty of self inflicted damage that the church has done and is doing to itself...For example, my goodness...My church, the grand ole COGIC has yet failed to adequately deal with the healing of victims of sexual abuse. Although we are setting new procedures in order to collect money and secure the fees of credential holders, we have YET to produce a national plan or program that address the pain that victims have suffered as a result of the sins and perversion of some of those who have been entrusted to leadership. Here is the outline of my plan that I will continue to push as long as the Lord gives me strength to do so. 

The Catholic church continues to experience the revelation of cover-up after cover-up...as much as they would like to "pretend" and see the world at "peace" I guess even the Seagulls and Crows know as long as
they ordain priests and leaders with suppressed gay and pedophile feelings, that there can be no peace....

Now, by revelations that are confounding congregations all across America, Bishops and Pastors yet continue to come up with "lust children"...They are those children born out of wedlock and due to adulterous affairs of these leaders years ago. Now, these children are suddenly suddenly showing up, demanding rights and attention....Oooh Yes, I am sick of it too, but don't be fooled, and don;t get it twisted. The women who in many of these cases, think that they are on a "righteous mission" by exposing these men, and even in some cases, used sex as a way to make money and a source of income from preachers and weak leaders, are just as bad as the preachers who fell into their arms...Don't think for a minute that a person "exposing" these bishops and leaders deserves any kind of pat on the back...Some of them were whores laying with whore-mongers. They get no reward for exposing the preachers, and as they do they expose themselves too! More on that in another writing....

So yes, much has happened and much more will happen. Glad to be back and for all the haters and debaters, there will be much more in this coming year to hate and debate over, but in the end...JESUS and them that follow HIM...WIN!

Blessed!

50 comments:

  1. Faith is irrational because it is believing something for bad reasons or no reason at all, because if one had good reasons then faith would not be needed. As far as my car engine starting, I don't have faith it will start, I have contingent trust based on past experiences. I probably have rode in a car a few thousand times in my life and for the most part, the car has not failed to start. I don't have absolute certainty a car will start when I turn the ignition, but I trust, based on my past experiences, that a car will likely start when I turn the ignition. No faith needed.

    As far as voting for religious reasons, I don't think using politics to force others to live up to your religious standards (when they may not even believe in your particular religion) is unfair and unjust. And as far as homosexuality goes, I do believe some are born that way and that it is not all environmental, but genetic as well. I think that what adults do in the privacy of their own home, in their own bedroom, is their business. However, I am against homosexuality being paraded in the public square and peddled to schoolchildren.

    As for atheist hating god or what not I have 2 things to say on that. You're an atheist too. Do you believe in Thor, Zeus, Odin, or Ra? No. Is it because you secretly know the truth, but you are rebelling against them? No. Do you not believe in Allah or the Jehovah Witnesses idea of God because sin has blinded your eyes? No, but I think that's what a muslim would say to explain your disbelief in Allah. Just like you have no good reason to believe in those other gods, atheists go one step further and don't believe in your god.

    And, as far as atheists hating your god, well, if he is god, then he has earned the hatred he gets. These following videos sum up my thoughts exactly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXO26pObTZA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1KkKg3YPQA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGkgmU9vG_o

    Also, the christian doctrine makes no sense when you think about it. It just doesn't.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QecUUnLNSiY
    This accurately portrays the christian doctrine without straw-manning it. Atheists don't believe because nothing about the christian religion makes sense in the slightest!

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    1. FM, you are just as senseless, blind and irrational as ever...What you have with a car is certitude...BELIEVE, that the car will start because it has before. That is nothing more than FAITH. FAITH is not a less proposition of life and those atheists brainwashers have seduced you into believing. FAITH is both consistent with and beyond reason.

      In my illustration, that I actually set forth in the article that you don't address, ALL of us exercise faith everyday. We exercise faith that someone will change or that someone will do this or that. That faith is not a religiously centered faith but it is a faith. How about belief that a drug addict when going through rehab will stop their drug use? How about belief that a company will pay a dividend at the end of the quarter in a good business cycle? Those things aren't guaranteed. In business dividends are not guaranteed, no matter how profitable a company is. In the social world hundreds of folk gone through drug rehab revert back to their drug states and conditions.

      We exercise a measure of FAITH as a rational part of our experience when dealing with others and to deny such is just plain silly. That is the futility of the statement. It is not logically supportable.

      On the other hand I serve God because of, 1- who he is, and 2- his interaction with me and 3- what I have found in HIM. All of this is more complex than anything that I will go into here, but I have REASON to believe in God because of my experience with HIM. You can't perceive HIM because you look at the forest you can't even identify the tree...but that is something that God can reveal IF you are complicit to HIS revelation of truth.

      So far as your "we're all atheist GARBAGE" which is something that must be in atheist class 101. That type of sentiment is answered and addressed adequately enough. We are not all atheists and those other gods of men made no claims neither have they demonstrated anything...my God has done both: http://dunamis2.wordpress.com/cat-died/

      Short of the long, as I state, if there is wrong, then there is truth. If there is truth, there must be a truth giver because all material things are neutral in matters of truth...there are no good or evil trees or rocks. And links from atheists, affirms atheist garbage and irrational beliefs, really don;t help to further any case...that is called a logical fallacy...an appeal to authority....since the case you present can;t speak for itself, I see why you do it!

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  2. You said: In my illustration, that I actually set forth in the article that you don't address, ALL of us exercise faith everyday. We exercise faith that someone will change or that someone will do this or that.
    How about belief that a drug addict when going through rehab will stop their drug use?

    We don't exercise "faith" in the sense you are trying to describe. People stop using drugs all of the time. So "faith" isn't required to believe someone will quit using drugs. We have that reasonable belief based on all the other documented evidence and experience that people have stopped using drugs in the past.

    You said "On the other hand I serve God because of, 1- who he is, and 2- his interaction with me and 3- what I have found in HIM. All of this is more complex than anything that I will go into here, but I have REASON to believe in God because of my experience with HIM."

    Well, ok then. You may be justified in believing. But you can't reasonably expect me or anyone else to believe as fervently as you do based on YOUR experience. As I sit in my basement right now Allah can appear to me and tell me that Islam is the one true religion and the Quran is his holy word and provide 100 percent solid evidence that he is god and what he says is true. The Virgin Mary could appear to me at this moment and tell me that catholicism is right and that the only true way to god is through the Catholic Church. Well, guess what??? I would be justified in believing in Islam or Catholicism, but I can't reasonably expect you to just take my word for it and for you to drop everything and convert to Islam or Catholicism. I hope that's not too difficult of a concept to understand.

    You said "We are not all atheists and those other gods of men made no claims neither have they demonstrated anything...my God has done both"

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    1. That's the problem. Claims have just been made. That is not unique to your specific denominations interpretation of the bible or christianity. Other sects of christianity and other religions make claims as well. Can any of these claims be demonstrated (to anyone else besides those who just agree with your denomination)? The answer is no. Show one scientific truth about nature or new technology that was discovered first in the pages of the Bible.
      Show one disease eliminated from the earth or one missing limb restored through prayer.
      Show one person who can preach the gospel in every human language.
      Show one Bible prophecy or one prediction by a Christian prophet that is accepted as fulfilled by non-Christians.
      Show one supernatural event in the Bible that is accepted by historians.
      Show one tsunami or plague whose damage was undone by divine action.
      Show any supernatural claim within Christianity that is accepted by non-Christians.

      You said "Short of the long, as I state, if there is wrong, then there is truth. If there is truth, there must be a truth giver because all material things are neutral in matters of truth...there are no good or evil trees or rocks. And links from atheists, affirms atheist garbage and irrational beliefs, really don;t help to further any case...that is called a logical fallacy...an appeal to authority....since the case you present can;t speak for itself, I see why you do it!

      So what makes you think that the "truth giver" is your specific version of the christian god. It could very well be Zeus or Allah or some unknown deity! If that's what you believe, fine. But don't state it as undisputable fact. And as far as the links being "irrational" or "garbage", point out just one thing in those videos that was said that is untrue about christian doctrine. In one of those videos about morality and the christian god, he pointed out how this moral god sent bears to maul and kill children for name-calling a prophet and another incident where he commanded unmarried women to be burned or stoned to death. According to your bible, are those things not true? Are atheist making those things up? You're the one who claims that your god is the moral lawgiver and author of morality. You're the one who claims the bible is the inerrant word of god and an accurate representation of his character.

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    2. Therefore, you can't expect everyone else to do like you do. You can't expect the rest of us to applaud the "Love thy neighbor" part of the Bible while ignoring when the same god says to stone women to death who are not virgins on their wedding night (or burn her alive if she's a priests' daughter). We both know that killing a young woman for not being a virgin on her wedding night is not just immoral, but evil. And is losing your virginity before marriage even a crime? Let alone, something worthy of punishment??? This is the god you hold up as being the absolute moral authority.

      I don't know if you have a daughter or not and if you do, how old she is. But if you found out your 17 or 18 year old daughter was having sex with her boyfriend or male friend of hers, I don't know what your reaction would be, but I'm going to take a wild guess and go out on a limb an say you wouldn't stone her to death (or being a pastor, you'd fall under the "priest" category) so I don't think you would set her on fire and burn her to death. But we're no longer under the law, which is going to be your cop out, as if that's the only reason you would not kill your daughter. The fact is, even if you believed we were still under the law, you still wouldn't burn your daughter to death, despite your god's "moral standards". Thats because you're a decent, civilized man. If I'm wrong and you would burn your daughter alive, let me know. But if you wouldn't, you are more moral than the god you hold up a the gold standard of morality.

      So point out one thing that was said in those videos where a lie was told on the bible or on something god did that was recorded in the bible.

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    3. You said: We don't exercise "faith" in the sense you are trying to describe. People stop using drugs all of the time. So "faith" isn't required to believe someone will quit using drugs. We have that reasonable belief based on all the other documented evidence and experience that people have stopped using drugs in the past.

      What that is is a rationalization. You exercise faith to believe that there will be a change. So the "faith" is applied to your belief. That is pretty simple. Atheist and skeptic Paul Kurtz outlines in his book Transcendental Temptation, which I will do a series of reviews on shortly, that there are 3 types of faith: 1- Intransigent faith, 2- willful belief and 3- belief framed by hypothesis and based upon probabilities.

      What you are doing, similar to Kurtz and most skeptics presenting their false worldview, is arguing that all religious faith is the same. It is either 1 or 2. As I stated, that is false. The faith of the Christian is demonstrable. It is demonstrable in both lifestyle choice, actions, methodological approaches to life and results. What skeptics do is set the standards and what does not meet their standards they declare insufficient. That is not only silly and arrogant, it is a standard that we can reject on its face. there is no reason that we have to accept that standard or the standard measured by your interpretation of science or scientism (which you exalt as god) or your version of scientific methodology.

      If I base my faith on 3, I have more than that that supports it. I have testimonies which have not and are not debunked and are sufficient for evidential purposes and aside from that I have my own personal experience, which you hold is subjective and cannot be counted. Well, your whole worldview and requirement for what you consider evidence and the whole "science of the gaps" argumentation is subjective...So by your standards, we could throw ALL of materialism and it's ideas and principles out...Why? Materialism cannot prove and or confirm first principles upon which it hangs its shoddy hat, neither is science comprehensible to support its own criteria as there is a HOST of real things such as mind, though, feelings and emotions that exist in this present reality that science cannot , will not and has not ever been able to harness or measure by any of the 5 senses which radicals like you claims that confirm the realness of things....

      Measuring the outcome of a thing or its byproduct is not a measure of the thing itself. A thought for instance cannot be measured, even if one can measure neurological signatures...still noone has ever placed a though in a test tube or transferred one from one mind to another...FRANKENSTEIN is a materialistic myth, not a religious one.

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    4. You also say: Show any supernatural claim within Christianity that is accepted by non-Christians. There are plenty of supernatural claims that have been made within Christianity that science and those who refuse to believe simply apply a "science of the gaps" argument to. I don;t have time to go through them, but look, Christianity has survived along with religion in general for centuries and no matter what one believes the central theme is that God has communicated to man. Christianity has the advantage of presenting evidence which was examined by individuals in their time which was notable as we find in history.

      We know what folk unsympathetic to Christianity thought and how they were answered and what Christians believed. Additionally, there was and never has been a grand advantage for being a Christian even after 325 AD. If there was it was short-lived...aside from all that, what we have is an experiential religion and faith in which the experiences are bound together...In Christianity, the experience is similar and unique around the world. The growth of the Christian faith in the world yet outpaces the advancement of any other religion and well more than that of rank skepticism, materialism and other concepts that seek to debunk God. It's not because the world is ignorant, it is because human nature realizes that there is a transcendent realm of existence and materialism doesn't represent life or reality as it is.

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    5. So far as the morality of God attack, that is about one of the most silly arguments in the world. First, there is a difference between law and the prophetic and apocalyptic language of scripture. Secondly, when God avenged Israel, in EVERY instance he did so out of promise and in accordance with his word with great lengths of time for people to comply and or repent...I won't go too in dept here as I've got a full post coming on this issues as well, but look at Jericho for example...Example, when Rahab speaks with Joshua and Caleb she says,

      Joshua 2:9-11 ~ "9-And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. 10-For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed. 11-And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath."

      OK, get the context...this was 40 years AFTER they had left Egypt. Rahab was not an old prostitute. She was a woman probably less than 40...So ALL OF HER LIFE, this had been known among the people...That God was coming through this people and HE meant business...

      What did they do? BUILD WALLS! They didn't even try to leave.

      Was God evil to do what he said he would do after 40 years? What if he had done nothing? Then what? He would have been a liar. He cannot lie.
      Take Amalek and the point is even more clear...

      God promised to utterly destroy Amalek (Ex. 17:14, Deut. 25:19) Why? Because Amalek tried to destroy Israel. It was also Moab, another who God destroyed who were friends with Amalek. They hired a charlatan to curse Israel (Num. 23:7)...Now, what was the promise of God even prior to that?
      Here it is:

      Genesis 12:3 ~And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

      THIS was the promise of God. Because Moab, and even Amalek, through and by Baalam sought to curse God and his people. (Num. 24:20) they had to die according to the promise if the word "curse' means anything at all...The key is that there were multiple years from the pronouncement to the fulfillment, (at some reconciliation even over 100 to 200 years) but both nations still remained defiant to God.

      Now, if God had not done what he said he would do, what is he but a liar? So we have God, making a promise, keeping the promise and giving even those whom he said he would judge, time to repent and even leave the area and toot up elsewhere. That hardly sounds like a maniac or anyone bent on destruction or anyone who has a moral issue...If he had not done what he said, then we have a problem.

      I can go on and on, there is even one unlearned atheist site that states that Hosea 13:16 which states that Israelite women shall be "ripped up" (ie: have their babies taken out of them and killed) was sanctioned by GOd. Folk like that have no clue of prophecy or the figurative language used. In fact when the king Mahanem did these things as recorded in 2 Kings 15, he was also counted as one of those who were EVIL and not doing things in accordance with God or his will.

      Atheists always point to things like this without regard to any context or what is actually being said. It is a literal fundamentalism that they implore when it is convenient to them and stories taken out of and completely away from their context when it helps makes their argument....The whole of the OT points toward and is fulfilled in the NT. One cannot interpret the Old without the context of the new and an understanding regarding the nature of God himself.

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  3. P.S. It's only an argument from authority if I'm holding something up as valid or true based on who said it. I'm not holding those links up as true based on who said it, but the content contained therein. It doesn't matter to me who says it. And the things they say are true because they are, not based on who said it or where it's found. An argument from authority is what you do when you start quoting the bible. X is true because it happens to be in the bible, despite any evidence to the contrary.

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    1. No, an argument from authority is when you believe because someone that hold your worldview repeats it that its true. As I stated materialism is a false and futile worldview on its own face...nothing means anything if materialism is true and nothing can change from what it is....There would be no evolution of any sort if materialism is true. We never see rocks and trees changing into giraffes even over millions of years and no matter what chemicals are applied.

      I know this is overly simplified, but it is futile and don;t even begin to talk about the development of morality and higher thoughts and structures such as that...All I can say is materialism is a modern mans final fantasy!

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  4. The CAT DIED analogy fails because in order for it to work, you have to believe it's true in the first place. So it doesn't prove anything. It's still back to making unfounded claims. So we haven't even left square 1.

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    1. CAT DIED addresses it all, you just reject it...so what! It adequately answers and addresses the issues along with thousands of other writings on why these other god's many of whom you already admit are not real, are not worshiped. Zeus makes no promise and or claim to save me or anyone. Why would we hold salvation to his account? That is an imposition and arrogant assumption that he would act the same as the God described in the bible (that is if Zeus he were real)

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  5. You said "So the "faith" is applied to your belief"
    Fine, call it what you want but there is a huge difference between me having "faith" that a drug addict will recover, which is an everyday occurence and faith that I'm being watched by an invisible man who is everywhere and is his own son.

    You said "What you are doing, similar to Kurtz and most skeptics presenting their false worldview, is arguing that all religious faith is the same. It is either 1 or 2. As I stated, that is false. The faith of the Christian is demonstrable. It is demonstrable in both lifestyle choice, actions, methodological approaches to life and results"

    Show me 1 thing that is demonstrable about it. That's the crux of atheist-christian debate. There is nothing demonstrable, although christians claim that there is but won't show it. And by "lifestyle" if you mean refraining form cursing, adultery, lying, stealing etc., christians do not have a monopoly on that. There are plenty of atheists and those that follow other faiths that refrain from those things as well. And there are plenty of christians who engage in those things. Case in point, Malcolm X was a known criminal before he became a Muslim. After becoming a Muslim, he stopped swearing, lying, committing adultery, smoking, and even eating pork. Helived more "holy" than alot of christians. And this is stated by people who knew him personally. Rev Martin Luther King, a christian pastor, was said to be the polar opposite in his private life. He was known for cheating on his wife and he smoke and drank with the best of them. Christians don't have a monopoly on moral behavior.

    You said "What skeptics do is set the standards and what does not meet their standards they declare insufficient."

    Such as?

    You said "aterialism cannot prove and or confirm first principles upon which it hangs its shoddy hat, neither is science comprehensible to support its own criteria as there is a HOST of real things such as mind, though, feelings and emotions that exist in this present reality that science cannot , will not and has not ever been able to harness or measure by any of the 5 senses which radicals like you claims that confirm the realness of things...."

    Classic argument from ignorance. Science doesn't know x, therefore my god is real. Sorry, you have to demonstrate it first. I don't know means I don't know. It doesn't get us to the christian version of god. It doesn't get us to therefore we have an invisible, intangible part of us that can't be measured called a soul. And just because science can't explain those things at this moment doesn't mean they'll never be able to explain them. A thousand years ago, science couldn't explain thunder and lightning. Well it can today, and not knowing where thunder and lightning came from did not mean Thor was real.




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    1. You said "There are plenty of supernatural claims that have been made within Christianity that science and those who refuse to believe simply apply a "science of the gaps" argument to"

      Such as? You keep making these general statements while providing no evidence for them and saying science refuses to look at them.. Maybe science did look and found no compelling evidence of anything supernatural.

      You said " Christianity has survived along with religion in general for centuries and no matter what one believes the central theme is that God has communicated to man"

      Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and Judaism have been around longer than Christianity and survive to this day. Islam, while being younger than christianity, has been around long enough. So your point is? And each of those religions have some god or gods supposedly communicating with man.

      You said "The growth of the Christian faith in the world yet outpaces the advancement of any other religion"

      According to wikipedia, Islam is the world's fastest growing religion today. And even if christianity was the fastest growing religion, that has no bearing on the truth of it's claims. If that's the way it worked, then Islam must be true right now, wouldn't you agree?



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    2. You said " First, there is a difference between law and the prophetic and apocalyptic language of scripture. Secondly, when God avenged Israel, in EVERY instance he did so out of promise and in accordance with his word with great lengths of time for people to comply and or repent"

      So what? Because people don't unquestoningly comply with gods commands, that makes genocide ok? God has the moral high ground? I don't care if he gave the 1 million years with sprinkles on top to repent, that still doesn't make genocide a valid option or a moral option. When Hitler commits genocide, it's evil no matter what the reason. If god commits genocide, well it's ok because people didn't obey him. Really?

      You said "Was God evil to do what he said he would do after 40 years? What if he had done nothing? Then what? He would have been a liar. He cannot lie."

      I don't know where you got that from. 1 Kings 22:23, God lies by proxy by putting a lying spirit in a prophets mouth. 2 Chronicles 18:22, God again puts a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophet. Ezekiel 14:9 God admits that if a prophet is deceived, that he deceived that prophet. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, this verse states that God will cause people to believe lies, so that he can punish them later for believing said lie. God doesn't lie? What bible are you reading from?

      Furthermore, from a god that commits genocide when his wishes aren't obeyed and a God that is willing to eternally torture people for not believing in him the right way, would you really put it past him to tell a few lies? God will commit genocide and torture, but he will not tell a lie! Are you serious?

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    3. You said: Fine, call it what you want but there is a huge difference between me having "faith" that a drug addict will recover, which is an everyday occurence and faith that I'm being watched by an invisible man who is everywhere and is his own son.

      First, God is NOT a man nor is he limited in his capacity nor is he his own son. So what you are imposing is not only incorrect, it is doctrinally incorrect and incoherent. God and the Son, the WORD, or Only begotten of the Father are of the same nature and essence but are eternally and distinct ontologically. If he is God at all he "watches" and knows all. So there is no problem with at least that part, but the rest is a false premise to begin with and a distinction taht makes all the difference in the world.

      Demonstrable? I can support Christian relief efforts, advance the kingdom of God, and a whole host of other things in good faith and conscience that you can't do. Those things are demonstrable. I can pray as well as thousands of others and receive answers. Those things are demonstrable. I can experience HIS presence, power and word along with others in a community of faith that you cannot do...in fact, where is the atheist community? there is nothing but fluff...no or very little actions...Where are the conventions of helping society born out of? Hospitals, feeding the poor, visiting those in prison are born out of Christian moral value ethics and experiences...NOT out of atheistic ones... Nonbelievers talk a good game, and criticize religion in general saying that religion or belief in God "prohibits progress", but they do very little in deed to assist their fellow man, except piggyback on the good ideas and fortune of others and especially them that are religious.

      Science explaining anything has no bearing on whether God is real and set those things there in order for our discovery. In fact that is the essence of seeking God who declares his "ways" ie: what he does and who he is, is "past finding out" meaning that we will never discover all the complexities that he has placed in the universe...Heck we can;t even go too deep into the ocean, yet alone the universe to discover what is in and on the earth...So my argument is not a God of the gaps, YOURS is a SCIENCE OF THE GAPS ARGUMENT based on a "wait and see, science will answer it and tell us why" only science DOES NOT present a moral value position...philosophy does...What we have in science is a pitiful state of materialistic philosophical views otherwise known as metaphysical naturalism being passed off as science...That is SILLY and exposed for the sham and farce that it is.

      Scientific discovery can NEVER tell us that there is no God. It can only tell us what GOd has done and set in order of the universe...So either you don;t know these concepts, or you are ignorant of them...that is the ultimate argument from ignorance!

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    4. You said: According to wikipedia, Islam is the world's fastest growing religion today. And even if christianity was the fastest growing religion, that has no bearing on the truth of it's claims. If that's the way it worked, then Islam must be true right now, wouldn't you agree?

      You should also know that Islam's growth is primarily due to community birth. ie: folk that are Muslim, are having babies and raising their children to be Muslim. Whereas every study basically affirms that Christianity is one of the fastest growing religions STILL and is with the strongest base of converts and Pentecostalism in particular.

      So get the details right...

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  6. Genesis 12:3 ~And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    So this justifies God killing a whole people because of what their ancestors did? Then again, it's perfectly within the character of your god to punish others for things they didn't do. That's what christianity is all about. Adam and Eve eat fruit from a tree. God comes up with an arbitrary rule that everyone must suffer with sin and death for something they had no part in.

    You said "That hardly sounds like a maniac or anyone bent on destruction or anyone who has a moral issue...If he had not done what he said, then we have a problem. "

    Yes it does. And let's put those specific cases aside. You still never answered my original question. Would you burn your teenage daughter to death if you found out she was having sex? Even if you believed the law is still valid (which some christians do, see Dominionist Christians)?

    In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say there are probably young women in your congregation who have children and these women have never been married. Do you think these women deserve to be murdered, especially in horrible ways such as stoning or being set on fire, simply because they had sex without marriage? I know you don't. But you can't bring your self to say it. You can't bring yourself to say that something God once commanded, by your own standards, is immoral and even evil.

    You can't bring yourself to say that a god who would condemn people to eternal torture of burning alive for such "crimes" as unbelief, telling a white lie, having sex before marriage, or listening to certain types of music is a cruel, unjust, and vengeful being. Yet, if a human dictator did this for the SAME things, you would have no problem calling him cruel or evil.

    You can't bring yourself to say that a god that hardened pharoah's heart, specifically so he could kill every firstborn child in Egypt, a god who sent 2 bears to slaughter 42 children for what amounted to juvenile name calling, a god who killed David's baby for something David did, you can't bring yourself to call him a child murderer. Yet if a human being did the same thing, you'd have no problem stating that he is a child murderer.

    This god you hold up as the pinnacle of morality is the same god that ordered animal sacrifice, committed genocide of every human and animal on the planet by drowning them in a flood (why did the animals need to die if humans were the one's being "wicked"), you have this same god endorsing slavery, even giving instructions on how to buy them and how hard you can beat them.

    All of this, and you say your God can't lie??? Lying is the very least of it!!! If all he did was tell a few lies here and there, there'd really be nothing to talk about. What about all the mass murder and torture??? that's the big fish.

    God is estimated to have killed 2.5 million people (not including the flood) in the bible and plans to murder many more during the Tribulation and after that, plans to torture billions in a lake of fire. Satan, by comparison has killed only 10 according to the bible and plans to torture no one in any kind of fire.

    Once again, I ask you....would you feel that your daughter should die a painful death by being burned alive for not being a virgin on her wedding day. Do you feel the unmarried women in your congregation who are not virgins deserved to be slaughtered for having sex? Not what you think god says, but how YOU feel? Do you think that the moral thing to do would be to kill them?

    Do you think atheist, Muslims, Hindus, and billions of others deserve this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PToapr_EuEE for all eternity? If you say no to the questions above, your are more moral, more good than your god. If you watch that clip, you will have to admit only a cruel and evil god, much more evil than Satan could do that to billions for eternity.




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    1. So far as God and genocide, if you are told, like Atlanta was, that bad weather is on the way, stay indoors and you will be OK, and you venture out into the middle of bad weather, get hit by a car or loose your life, who's fault is it?

      I mean be serious! Your bleeding heart "pretend to care" for those poor people whom God killed...PLEASE man you are full of IT!!!!! The scripture says that God exalted his WORD even above all his name (Ps. 138:2)...if he cannot lie and says that folk that curse those who serve him are cursed with a curse...what do you expect will happen to them? they would just sit down quietly??? PLEASE!!!!

      So would that suffering be for something that you did or didn't do? I mean first, you DIDN'T take heed to the warnings and then you DID violate what was told...so who's fault is it???

      The atheist is stuck with this conundrum...It is called utilitarianism...it would have been better for God to lie than to kill or destroy those cultures that cursed even him...That moral value ethic.

      God sounds like a grown up serious about what he says and serious about his promises...that's what he sounds like to me...in addition, all the people had to do was either REPENT (have you heard of Nineva) or leave the area and take up residence elsewhere...they refused because they were like you...an UNBELIEVER...unbelief can cost a person many things. Happens everyday...drug dealers, DON"T BELIEVE that will be caught, at least not today...but when they are raided a new reality settles in...I could go on and on...you "should" get the gist....

      Now name ONE PLACE in Israel's recorded history or in the historic records of other societies that broach upon Israel's history that declares that daughter killing and certain rituals as you name were apropos in Israel....You want to argue something that doesn't exist...plus you quote the law wrong...it was not a proscription to kill one's daughter for unmarried sexual activity, It was a proscription for a man to MARRY the daughter that a man had sex with...

      Deut 22:28-29 ~ 28-If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29-Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

      Pharoah's heart was hardned because of the acts of God, not because God made him obstinate, but yet God had a plan to make a demonstration out of him because of his obstinate...In other worlds like the husband that beats his wife and says, "she made me hit her"...THAT's what GOd did to Pharaoh...Pharaoh though he was God and godlike...God upped him and he was mad...mad enough to get mad at GOd and harden his heart and change his mind about many things...

      Once again, GET THE STORY STRAIGHT before you criticize the elements of it...

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    2. Now, since you believe that sinners and those who reject God should go to heaven, then what would heaven be for those folk such as you? Wouldn't that be your HELL? I mean you demand that God takes you to heaven screaming and kicking...What is that but a backwards and highly selfish desire...if you don;t want Christ, and all of eternity is about Christ, then why would God not give you what you want in eternity- a place WITHOUT Christ??? That would be a FAIR and equitable deal now wouldn't it?

      No, what it is is that you want to tell God..."God I didn't have enough evidence to choose you, so you should understand" and God says, "what accounted for the choice of the millions upon millions and even billions that did choose me?" It's the old praying to be delivered at sea and God sends 3 ships and he doesn;t get on board waiting for God to "save" him and he gets to heaven and says, God why didn't you "save" me? GOd says, I sent you 3 boats and you sent each one away...what more could I do...That's YOU and every other atheist I know!

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  7. You said "There would be no evolution of any sort if materialism is true. We never see rocks and trees changing into giraffes even over millions of years and no matter what chemicals are applied."

    You obviously do not understand evolution and you're straw-manning it to the fullest. Evolution never says a rock changes into a giraffe. Go to talkorigins.com and that will answer all your questions and rebuttals to evolution.

    But, that aside. Even if evolution was proven wrong tomorrow, what does that mean. It certainly doesn't mean that therefore the biblical creation story is true, or that your denominations view of the bible and god is correct. Those have to be demonstrated on their own.

    And I'll risk putting my foot in my mouth and say this. It isn't evolution you disagree with. It can be anything that doesn't agree with the bible. No matter how much evidence it has to support it, whether it be evolution or anything else, you would still deny it if it didn't match with what you believe about scripture! Tell me I'm wrong!

    If science says anything other than the earth was created in 6 days by god, you're going to Deny Deny Deny until the bitter end. It doesn't matter whether it's evolution or something else and it certainly doesn't matter who much evidence supports it.

    You said "CAT DIED addresses it all, you just reject it...so what! It adequately answers and addresses the issues along with thousands of other writings on why these other god's many of whom you already admit are not real, are not worshiped. Zeus makes no promise and or claim to save me or anyone. Why would we hold salvation to his account? That is an imposition and arrogant assumption that he would act the same as the God described in the bible (that is if Zeus he were real)"

    So what that Zeus makes no claim? How do we get from "My god makes a claim, therefore he's real and the bible and every supernatural thing contained therein" is true? How do you get from one to the other.

    Salvation is a problem peculiar to Christianity, therefore no other religion would address it. You can't start out with a presupposition that what you believe is true and everything else is false, judge other religions by what you think to be true and say "see I just proved everyone else wrong". By those standards, Christianity would be false if you judged it through the lense of Islam. Hinduism is false judged through the eyes of Judaism.

    And have you stopped to think, what are you being saved from? An original sin that god arbitrarily condemned you of because some ancestors ate a piece of fruit 6,000 years ago. A hell that he himself created and decided should be the punishment for the sin he cursed you with for something your ancestors did thousands of years ago. A punishment, that he himself enforces. That's crazy!

    As far as I know, Zeus or any other god never had such an insane system, so there's nothing to be saved from by those god's standards.

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  8. You said "Demonstrable? I can support Christian relief efforts, advance the kingdom of God, and a whole host of other things in good faith and conscience that you can't do. Those things are demonstrable. I can pray as well as thousands of others and receive answers. Those things are demonstrable. I can experience HIS presence, power and word along with others in a community of faith that you cannot do...in fact, where is the atheist community? there is nothing but fluff...no or very little actions...Where are the conventions of helping society born out of? Hospitals, feeding the poor, visiting those in prison are born out of Christian moral value ethics and experiences."

    Two problems. Those things like hospitals, visiting the sick, etc. can be done without christianity and are not unique to christianity, nor do they demonstrate any of the supernatural claims of christianity. Pray and receive answers you say? Can you show and prove it? Every study on prayer says otherwise. There's no way for you to demonstrate prayers are answered. And if you can, don't show it to me. There are universities full of scientists that would love to meet you.

    As far as experiencing his "presence and power". well I'll say this. I've grown up in COGIC, in fact my grandfather right now is a COGIC superintendent in Michigan and my godfather, who passed away a few years ago, was a jurisdictional bishop in Michigan. I've sat in on many a service. And when they say "God is in this place" or something like that it's usually because the crowd is over-emotional, yelling to the top of their lungs, crying, rolling around on the floor, running around the building, speaking in tongues, organ playing, drums playing. None of that is evidence of any supernatural power. It's evidence that people can experience euphoria under the right conditions. But if you believe it's something supernatural, I won't argue with you.

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  9. Biblical creation is more in line with truth, scientific findings and what we discover through science about the real world. We know that nothing comes from nothing and that life just doesn't spring up from rocks as is the evolutionary paradigm..,.In addition, if materialism is true, there is no such thing as freewill...all is an illusion and life itself is deceptive...you are STUCK and confined to material processes and morality and your complaint against religion is nothing more than a speck of dust in the wind...totally meaningless...

    You said: And I'll risk putting my foot in my mouth and say this. It isn't evolution you disagree with.

    Ahhh, insert foot...No one disagrees that evolution exists or that it is in operation in life. That is micro-evolution. There are adaptations in species based on where those species live etc, but a cow is always a cow on the range or on the farm...a horse is never a dog and never will be in eons of time...Anyone worth their salt disagrees with what is called macro-evolution (as I have described) of change from one species or kind to another over time. There are variations, but not any cross speciation over time or otherwise...

    The fossil record affirms completely and fully developed species, not gradual changes in species

    You said: "It can be anything that doesn't agree with the bible. No matter how much evidence it has to support it, whether it be evolution or anything else, you would still deny it if it didn't match with what you believe about scripture! Tell me I'm wrong!

    What we find does not disagree with the bible, so you ARE wrong...If we were to find something that did, I can't imagine what that would be, let me know when that happens and we'll give it a go...now, the bible does not set the creation account in time. That is an extrapolation based on the chronology of the bible, but none of us know how that genealogy works or what gaps exist...Like the geaneologies of the NT, Matthew's is full of gaps for a purpose and that is for memory and oral history grouping in a set of 14...So you pay no attention to the "science" or method of biblical interpretation either. Granted, I will cut you some slack on that one because it is a difficult area and field of study which has been further hampered by our language and the translation itself. In Hebrew, Genesis 1 was a rhyme set to memory for oral historicity. Genesis 2 gave more details on Genesis 1, but we loose some caveats in translation such as God's name every 14 words or so and such the like...

    Where did Zeus promise salvation and what was one to be saved from according to him? Ooh you answered for me: As far as I know, Zeus or any other god never had such an insane system, so there's nothing to be saved from by those god's standards.

    That's good...so Zeus made no claim of bettering my life in any way...so why would I credit any of that to him at all? Self evident to me...


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    1. You said: Two problems. Those things like hospitals, visiting the sick, etc. can be done without christianity and are not unique to christianity, nor do they demonstrate any of the supernatural claims of christianity. That wasn't the question...the question was demonstrate something done because of Christianity wasn't it or at least because of GOd? Anyone can do anything, BUT there is yet a difference...Materialism PIGGYBACKS on the efforts and notions of Christians and the moral biblical value ethic. It offers nothing new. That is what is worth noting. Materialism does NOT move one to higher pursuits of anything, whereas theism, especially Christianity does. Then there is ultimately a distinction due to reward...under materialism, there is no reward for good at all...There is no ultimate and all actions good or bad are treated equally...they all fade away into oblivion...so why even do good if there is no God? Ultimately good and evil are indistinguishable and Hitler will be rewarded the same as the greatest humanitarian that ever lived...Your's is a world of NONSENSE!

      You said: Pray and receive answers you say? Can you show and prove it? Every study on prayer says otherwise. There's no way for you to demonstrate prayers are answered. And if you can, don't show it to me. There are universities full of scientists that would love to meet you.

      Lot of prayers for lot of things, all of which were answered one way or another...not by a set of coincidences...God answers through and by millions of venues and even personally if need be...As I said, you be the one to stay on the boat and die, it won;t be because God didn't send help!!!!

      What one does with the power of God makes all the difference. how can two people be in the same place and experience 2 different realities? I don;t know, but I do know that God is present to ALL them that will call upon him. First acknowledgement for anyone wanting change, skeptic or not, is acknowledgement that they need change. If you want to know God, as many a skeptic says, then admit that you want to know HIM on HIS terms not yours...We are subject to HIM. That's the way it is...

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  10. You said "Scientific discovery can NEVER tell us that there is no God"

    It doesn't, but what it does say is that their is no evidence for the christian god or any god for that matter.



    You said "You should also know that Islam's growth is primarily due to community birth. ie: folk that are Muslim, are having babies and raising their children to be Muslim. Whereas every study basically affirms that Christianity is one of the fastest growing religions STILL and is with the strongest base of converts and Pentecostalism in particular.

    So get the details right..."

    Well when I read the article, wikipedia said Islam also had the highest rates of conversion. But even if what you say is correct, that still doesn't mean the supernatural claims of your religion is true.

    You said "So far as God and genocide, if you are told, like Atlanta was, that bad weather is on the way, stay indoors and you will be OK, and you venture out into the middle of bad weather, get hit by a car or loose your life, who's fault is it? "

    This analogy fails miserably. Are you seriously comparing staying indoors due to bad weather to mass murder?? Are you kidding me?
    Here's a more appropriate analogy a dictator makes a bunch of rules like no talking on Fridays. People continue to talk on Fridays. The dictator gives them every opportunity to shut up. The people continue talking so he has the brutally tortured and murdered. But I guess you'll say the dictator is not at fault because he gave the people every opportunity to shut up. I mean, what else was he supposed to do? Oh and by the way, this dictator is the perfect example of love and forgiveness....

    You said ".it would have been better for God to lie than to kill or destroy those cultures that cursed even him"

    Wait a minute. Are you saying with a straight face that 1. Mass murder is more moral than lying? And 2. It's perfectly ok to commit genocide because someone curses you? If that's what you really believe, I don't even know what to say to that. I just hope no one ever licenses you to carry a gun.

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    1. No, the point holds of my analogy and what you are doing is simply comparing arguments, not comparing the results of what is being argued...The results are clear...Since God never said anything like talk on Fridays, I'll simply disregard that garbage....

      God said distinct thing...read Genesis 12, I've already placed it in quotes...you can;t simply look over it as if it doesn't matter...If he has a CONTRACT which the OT is, then he has to fulfill it;s terms...but that's exactly what bleeding heart human moralists do...you VIOLATE agreements for a "greater good"...God is not capricious nor arbitrary like you...THANK GOD!!!!!

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  11. You said "Pharoah's heart was hardned because of the acts of God, not because God made him obstinate"

    Wrong. In Exodus 14:4 God specifically states that he will harden Pharoah's heart so that he can gain glory for himself. And even if Pharoahs heart was already hardened, what justification is that to commit mass child murder?

    You said "Now name ONE PLACE in Israel's recorded history or in the historic records of other societies that broach upon Israel's history that declares that daughter killing "

    Leviticus 21:9 specifically states that a daughter of a priest who "plays the whore" or has unmarried sex is to be burnt with fire. Deuteronomy 22:20-21 states that a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night (meaning she had unmarried sex) is to be killed by stoning. Yes, these were laws and penalties that God made up. Don't try to pretend they're not there.

    You said "Deut 22:28-29 ~ 28-If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29-Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days."

    The infamous verse where god commands a woman to marry her rapist. This one slipped my mind. Thanks for pointing it out. On a side note, it is interesting that god never once prohibited rape at any time in the Bible. Nor did he ever prohibit slavery. In fact, he advocated both. At least he tells us not to wear garments made of mixed fabrics, Deut 22:11. You know, something important.





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    1. NO, I'm right...you just can;t see it because you have a predisposition and boas against it...I explained it thoroughly...God hardened Pharaoh's heart by his actions. he one upped Pharaoh and made him mad...Look at my wording...God made him mad...Does that mean that God, created madness in him to destroy him? NO...it means that Pharaoh interpreted God's actions and hated God because of it...

      ANSWERED AND SETTLED...move on

      You think that Deut 22:20-21 refers to the girls who simply has sex prior to marriage...You are WRONG again. I know the passages go kind of fast, but this portion only refers to a woman, who when and while engaged to be married, commits sexual acts which brings a shame to her father's house. She commits "folly". That is wanton sexual activity which was prohibited. This has nothing to do with what you are talking about. The verses that cover what you are talking about are the verses I pointed to...there is no commitment to death for a woman caught having sex prior to marriage. You, like most unlearned atheists (so far as scriptural matters) try to make a whole case off of wrong info...so sad!!!!

      So far as the "raped" woman...God gives her rights! He cannot put her away and she always has whatever belongs to him...In this case Deut 22:28, I happen to believe that this is about folk getting caught in the cookie jar and not about rape. She is "humbled" because she is caught in sin, not raped, BUT that is my opinion and not a common interpretation of the text. I've spoken to Hebrew scholars about this as well...Nonetheless, your argument is ineffective as a criticism...

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  12. You said"Now, since you believe that sinners and those who reject God should go to heaven, then what would heaven be for those folk such as you? Wouldn't that be your HELL?"

    Oh my god. Are you seriously trying to justify the torture of billions by saying "It would actually be worse to go to heaven". Number two, why does torture have to be the ONLY alternative to heaven? Are you really defending a being that would be willing to torture billions for eternity?
    So if Sadaam Hussein tortures someone for not believing something he says, it's evil? But if god does it, it's good?

    For god to be the gold standard of morality, you sure hold your fellow humans to higher moral standards than you do your god. One would think it would be the other way around.

    You said "That would be a FAIR and equitable deal now wouldn't it?"

    No it wouldn't. Not if that place came with mandatory torture. You seem bent on justifying torture. Can I ask why? If a human being tortured billions, you would readily acknowledge he was cruel and evil. If Satan did it, you would have no problem calling Satan evil. I would go so far as to say if Satan did half the things your god was reported to have done in the Bible, you would think him despicably evil.

    You said ""God I didn't have enough evidence to choose you, so you should understand"

    So you do know if Islam turns out to be right, you're going to hell to. I hope you have your excuses ready should Allah turn out to be the real deal. See, what amazes me about Christians is they think hell is ok, as long as THEY aren't going there. Otherwise decent people believe that mass torture is perfectly just, as long as they aren't the one being tortured. But if you turn out to be wrong and Islam is correct, do you feel you deserve to be tortured? For what amounts to be a victimless "thought crime"?

    Of course you won't feel like YOU should be tortured for following the wrong religion, but you see no problem with a Muslim or Atheist being tortured forever simply for being wrong. Well, Pastor Burnett, if Islam is right, I would think Allah is a cruel and evil deity to torture you or any other Christian simply for having the wrong idea. It amazes me how Christians seem as if they cheer on the idea of eternal torture for anyone who doesn't agree with them. Well, you better hope Islam isn't correct.

    Furthermore, do you think you can really trust a deity who is so cruel that he would see no problem with torturing billions of people for simply not believing or not following his arbitrary dictates to a T? Do you really believe you can trust a deity who so readily kills children and innocent people just because they (or their parents or their Pharoah) didn't grovel fast and hard enough? Who's to say he won't double cross you and send you to his torture chamber?

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    1. You said: Oh my god. Are you seriously trying to justify the torture of billions by saying "It would actually be worse to go to heaven". Number two, why does torture have to be the ONLY alternative to heaven? Are you really defending a being that would be willing to torture billions for eternity?

      You are SERIOUSLY trying to argue that a person who does not want God should be made to have him for all eternity? You are more weird than I thought!!!!! In addition hell is not a place of torture...it is a place of torment. There is a vast difference.

      Torture: the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

      Torment: extreme mental or physical pain

      The TORMENT of hell is the anguish over the loss of God's presence, which is something that noone on earth knows right now, and the conscious understanding that a person rejected the presence of God with volition and will. That is the torment of hell. Death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire, but i have no clue as to what that really means....Doesn't mean annihilation, but I can't relate to a misery that bad...If a person doesn't want God, he places them in a place where they will never have to be bothered with him...To FORCE someone into heaven with a God they reject IS hell...Why do you want to go to heaven if you don;t and won't believe in God...you are a complete fool-LOL!!!!

      So far as "thought crimes" have you ever heard of "intent to commit murder"...that is punishable under the law...that is a thought crime and in the end there either can be or not be a victim. If someone "intends" to act unlawfully, they can go to jail just as quickly as if they had done it in many cases...Grow up...Christopher Hitchens is well aware of just how wrong he was about this too,,,now....

      And I would say trust a God that is awesome and that will do what he said...That's all I can say about that...

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  13. You said " GOd says, I sent you 3 boats and you sent each one away...what more could I do...That's YOU and every other atheist I know!"

    What more could you do? Demonstrate your existence in an unambiguous fashion. Tell us which religion is the correct one. Tell us exactly how to interpret the Bible (or the Quran or whatever) so that we will KNOW that we got it right and that everyone is on the same page. Tell humanity exactly what you want so one person won't believe you want them flying airplanes into buildings and the other won't believe you don't want women to wear pants. Thats what you can do!

    You can demonstrate yourself like you used to do all the time in the Bible (and the Quran). Because if you do exist, I don't see why I'm any less deserving of evidence just because of the accident of my time and place of birth. If I were born 3,000-6,000 years ago in the Ancient Middle East, there was evidence galore. You were always doing something to demonstrate your existence in an unmistakeable fashion. If I were born in 1st Century Judea, I would have more evidence than I could shake a stick at. But, poor me, I was born in the late 20th century in Detroit. So all I get is choir singing, sermons, and lame apologetics about looking at the moon, trees, and stars.



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  14. You said "Biblical creation is more in line with truth, scientific findings and what we discover through science about the real world. We know that nothing comes from nothing and that life just doesn't spring up from rocks as is the evolutionary paradigm"

    Ok, well since you seem to have the evidence that proves Biblical creationism, then I assume you have no problem with presenting it to the scientific community for study and peer review. Any day now, the theory of evolution will be replaced by the theory of creationism and you will have your Nobel prize. No offense, but I don't care what a preacher has to say about evolutionary biology any more than I care what a preacher has to say about fixing my car (unless that preacher is a mechanic). I trust biologist to do my biology, just like I trust mechanics to do my mechanical work.

    The consensus of the experts in the field of biology, paleontology and those other related fields is that the theory of evolution best explains the diversity of life on this planet. Not being a biologist, I am not qualified to make judgements on those fields and thus trust those who have spent decades doing the research and acquiring the evidence and because I know how the scientific method works and that in science, everything is evidence based.

    You said "What we find does not disagree with the bible, so you ARE wrong"

    That would be news to the scientific community. You seem to know alot about these fields of science and to have all of the answers. I'm just sitting here wondering why you haven't got this stuff peer reviewed and published in any scientific journals and went to go collect your Nobel prize. I mean the information you claim to have will overturn whole fields of science.

    You said "Lot of prayers for lot of things, all of which were answered one way or another...not by a set of coincidences...God answers through and by millions of venues and even personally if need be"

    So you'll have no problem with demonstrating this under laboratory conditions I assume? So that you can prove me and other skeptics wrong and shut us up. If god is really answering prayer, then he doesn't have to do anything extra. All he has to do is keep doing what it is he's doing while men in white lab coats take notes.

    You said " If you want to know God, as many a skeptic says, then admit that you want to know HIM on HIS terms not yours...We are subject to HIM. That's the way it is...

    You sure make alot of unsubstantiated claims. If you want to know Allah, as many a skeptic says, then admit that you want to know HIM on HIS terms not yours...We are subject to HIM. That's the way it is.

    See what I just did there, and we're back at square 1.

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    1. This is interesting, while claiming you don't need faith, you give the most startling statement of faith possible...here you go, look at you:The consensus of the experts in the field of biology, paleontology and those other related fields is that the theory of evolution best explains the diversity of life on this planet. Not being a biologist, I am not qualified to make judgements on those fields and thus trust those who have spent decades doing the research and acquiring the evidence and because I know how the scientific method works and that in science, everything is evidence based.

      Based on all the work those men have done using methods you "claim" to understand you simply TRUST them...you have FAITH in them because they say so...Isn't that telling??? You DO exercise faith don't you? Faith can be reasonable can't it? LOL!!!!!!! and Like Jesus did for Herod, God is not interested in doing a "trick" for anyone...he meets people at the point of their need. I see him do it all the time and enjoy seeing my congregation experience this as well.

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  15. You said " the moral biblical value ethic"

    You mean like Genocide? Child Murder? Animal Sacrifice? Human Sacrifice? Slavery? Murder of people for arbitrary things like picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week or trying to stop the ark from falling on the ground? God ordering cannibalism? Selling your daughter into sex slavery?

    That moral biblical value ethic?

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    1. No, I mean like the same biblical moral values that are the basis for law and advancement of every modern society. I am talking about the biblical moral value ethic that spurs the discovery of medicines to relive suffering, hospitals to help the sick, food lines to serve the poor and shelters to help families and people that are without and services to serve the weak, and needy...that's what I'm talking about the hands and feet on the ground in the face of talkers like yourself who sit idly while other, because of our faith do the work around the world when tragedy strikes...

      There was recently a tornado in Washington Illinois, 10 minutes form me. Wiped out about 1,000 homes...where did those people go and where were they served by...NOT the American atheists, or the rational thought crew of America...they were served by the CHURCH and the people of God! Who helped clean up? Not the Atheistic pundits of the world...it was CHURCH FOLK and primarily Christians going through the rubble, loving people and helping them bring some sense to the world and the actions that just happened...What did the people say? THANK GOD for their lives...and THANK GOD they can rebuild...

      Where were your "this is all we have" atheist friends??? Doing what many of them do best...sittin around complaining because God is moral enough for them...What kinda fools potion do you drink...Immoral personal complaining because God doesn't meet their intellectual criteria...

      Anyway...NOTHING to see here...keep moving on...PLEASE!!!!!

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    2. That still doesn't excuse your god sanctioning these issues: Genocide? Child Murder? Animal Sacrifice? Human Sacrifice? Slavery? Murder of people for arbitrary things like picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week or trying to stop the ark from falling on the ground? God ordering cannibalism? Selling your daughter into sex slavery?

      And you still never answered me. If Islam is right and you are wrong do you think you deserve hell?

      Would Allah be good and just for sending you there or would you agree that you send yourself?

      You also never answered if you think your daughter or any of the women in your church would deserve to be brutally murdered for having unmarried sex?

      These are straight-forward, yes or no questions and it's telling that you continue to avoid answering them after I've asked you several times.

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    3. I am not arguing Islam, Islam is wrong for a number of reasons primarily because it does not accord with the scriptures which it also claims to venerate and that are final authority in matters and issues of truth...so please STOP with the nonsense and if I chose not to serve God I deserve hell just like you, Christopher and all of them that reject HIM...Why would I even want heaven if I reject him, I would have to be an idiot!

      So far as the sex part, I've answered that IN CONTEXT...what you declare was NOT the case in Israel, so why should I answer what the text doesn't say or teach? Here is what I said AGAIN....

      You think that Deut 22:20-21 refers to the girls who simply has sex prior to marriage...You are WRONG again. I know the passages go kind of fast, but this portion only refers to a woman, who when and while engaged to be married, commits sexual acts which brings a shame to her father's house. She commits "folly". That is wanton sexual activity which was prohibited. This has nothing to do with what you are talking about. The verses that cover what you are talking about are the verses I pointed to...there is no commitment to death for a woman caught having sex prior to marriage. You, like most unlearned atheists (so far as scriptural matters) try to make a whole case off of wrong info...so sad!!!!

      Never seen such lunacy!!!! And those are STRAIGHT FORWARD answers...PLEASE move on...You've laid out question and assertion after assertion which I have proven wrong or have adequately addressed, there is nothing more for you to say but the same old repeatedly dead mess...

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  16. You said "Based on all the work those men have done using methods you "claim" to understand you simply TRUST them...you have FAITH in them because they say so...Isn't that telling??? "

    Call it what you want, but they have evidence that can be produced on command and be examined by anyone. They have done experiments that are repeatable by anyone. Again, go to talkorigins.org which can answer all of your questions. Call it faith if you want to. But we both know "faith" in well documented science and faith in supernatural claims (at least the one's out of your particular holy book) are two different things. You're playing with words at this point.

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    1. Not all science is repeatable or testable and we've been over this ground before...in fact first principles that are used to do science is not even provable nor testable...so you have NOTHING but garden variety FAITH at work with a bunch of philosophical presuppositions called metaphysical naturalism...It is a SHAME and nothing more...So far as playing words. YOU are incoherent...at least that is provable and repeatable...my goodness!!!!

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  17. You said "There was recently a tornado in Washington Illinois, 10 minutes form me. Wiped out about 1,000 homes...where did those people go and where were they served by...NOT the American atheists, or the rational thought crew of America...they were served by the CHURCH and the people of God! "

    I never claimed that modern-day christians did not do good and charitable things. I'll admit they do. But it serves to strengthen my argument that Christians are more moral than the god they hold up as the pinnacle of morality. Furthermore, how do you know that no atheists were helping out? And, doing nice things doesn't give any credibility to your supernatural beliefs. Mormons also do lots of nice things. But I don't see you saying mormonism is true!

    You said "You are SERIOUSLY trying to argue that a person who does not want God should be made to have him for all eternity? You are more weird than I thought!!!!! In addition hell is not a place of torture...it is a place of torment. There is a vast difference. "

    Are you seriously trying to argue FOR mass torture!!! You're a christian. I assume you eat pork and think Jesus is the son of God. In Islam, both of those are punishable by hell. If Islam is right, do you think Allah would be good and just for sending Christians and every other non-muslim to hell? Would you say "Well, Christians send themselves for not wanting to be in Allah's presence?" Of course you wouldn't say that because you know it's non-sense. You don't think you deserve hell simply for believing the wrong religion and I really don't think you think anyone else does either.

    The problem is that you are compelled by your religion to agree with whatever you think your god sanctions or does. Alot of times, because of the cognitive dissonance, this results in special pleading.

    Should you turn out to be right, it's perfectly ok for your god to send a Muslim to hell for believing the wrong religion. That's good and just. But if Allah turns out to be the real deal, then it's cruel and barbaric for him to send Christians to hell by the billions. When your god and the Muslim god are both using the exact same standards in judgement. Belief or unbelief. Either you are or you aren't.

    So you have to admit that if Allah is right, you deserve to be sent to a torture chamber for eternity simply for following the wrong religion. It doesn't matter how good and sincere you were or how many people you tried to help. You had the wrong religion. You have to admit that you're sending yourself and that Allah would be perfectly right and just.

    But if you can't admit that, then that helps indicate your true feelings on the issue of hell.

    You said "Torture: the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

    Torment: extreme mental or physical pain

    A distinction with no difference.

    You said "So far as "thought crimes" have you ever heard of "intent to commit murder"...that is punishable under the law...that is a thought crime and in the end there either can be or not be a victim."

    I have since I've worked in law enforcement. And intent to commit murder always includes an action. You don't go to prison for simply thinking committing murder or thinking murder is ok. Intent to commit murder means that you committed an ACTION which a reasonable person should have been able to determine that if successful, would have caused death or great bodily harm. Don't try to relate that to belief or unbelief in a religion. We don't lock people up for their religious beliefs or lack thereof.



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    1. You said: I never claimed that modern-day christians did not do good and charitable things. I'll admit they do. But it serves to strengthen my argument that Christians are more moral than the god they hold up as the pinnacle of morality.

      Evidently you didn't take a course on how to communicate or keep your points and or thought in line with what is being discussed. My POINT is that Christians do what we do because of Christianity, not in spite of it. That is pretty easy to understand. To the contrary, the atheist crowd and the prognosticators such as you, talk a lot about the being the "only reality we will ever have" and do NOTHING or very little to help the plight of humanity. The world itself doesn't turn to you for substantive issues because in the deepest sense it recognizes your inability to serve and meet the needs because of the futility of your worldview. Sure Gates and Buffett have plenty of money, but that money is either self directed, because they don;t even trust others like them evidently, or placed in the hands of folk who have theistic worldviews and do things because of God. So my statements (if one knows how to communicate) do nothing to support you and or your position.

      You said:"Furthermore, how do you know that no atheists were helping out? And, doing nice things doesn't give any credibility to your supernatural beliefs. Mormons also do lots of nice things. But I don't see you saying mormonism is true!"

      As I said, you have a communication difficulty...the point is that it doesn't matter who was helping out or who does what...it is FAITH that inspires folk to act and if a million atheists were in action they were following the lead of Christians and theistic operations and ventures. Unbelievers being able to do what Christians do is not an issue, what we find is that the greatest conventens of mankind have been inspired by Christians...even SCIENCE itself was a convention inspired by Christians who set out to DISCOVER the handi-work of God in the universe. God was the assumption of science until it was philosophically hijacked by pundits who have a priori naturalism.,

      It was a religion man, a Christian, Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627) who was a philosopher known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning...

      It was a religious man, a Christian scientist Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity.

      It was a religious man and Christian Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) who after all the trouble that he went through for presenting truths regarding the orbit of the earth, building on Kepler that expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts.

      It was a religious man, a Christian, Rene Descartes (1596-1650) the father of modern philosophy that sought to establish the near certainty of the existence of God stating that for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy scientific method and discovery.

      It was a religious man, a Christian Isaac Newton (1642-1727)that saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God was essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being."

      I mean I could go ON and ON...Please!

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    2. So far as your need for me to agree that "torture" is what the bible teachers, like I said, "torture" not even a biblical concept...heaven is hell to a sinner who does not want God...why even want to go? You persistence in this is silly...Judgement is ultimately in the hands of the Lord, but Jesus said that HE was the door and no man comes to the Father but by him. Islam does not teach the same Jesus that I do, why should anyone who follows it receive the same rewards? I'l not entertain this with you because you're not an Islamic apologist, go to the Islamic threads to see how I've addressed that, stop filling up my threads with your garbage...I will delete more stupidity should you continue to offer it...

      I know NEVER to have you for a lawyer...When a person commits a crime folk can go to jail for their THOUGHTS and for being in agreement especially at the scene...If you and your friend set out to kill someone, and your fiend does the killing, you will also be charged on conspiracy and intent...so a person does not have to physically act to be charged or to have it stick...From a lawyer friend of mine on a hypothetical case of a man entering a house to rob it, and leaving with nothing, in other words not following through on it:

      "People often think that a burglary requires proof that the suspect broke into the home. Actually, a person commits a burglary when he or she enters a dwelling (or building, vehicle, etc.) without authority and with the intent to commit a felony. If a person had entered the house with the intent to steal and changed his mind, leaving with nothing, he would still have committed burglary. A burglary does not require that the felony act (in this case, theft) be completed. All that is necessary is that the person entered the premises without authority and intended to commit the felony. The act of burglary was complete as soon as an unauthorized person entered his neighbors' home with the intent to take their belongings."~ Criminal Law Basics!!!

      THOUGHT CRIME, Not unlawful entry! Murder would work the same way...a murder does not have to occur before one can be charged with intent to commit one...in fact many folk survive murder attempts and the criminals that tried to kill them are tried and sent to jail when caught.

      BOOM!!!!

      Go learn something and stop wasting my time on silly arguments and unlearned assertions of your atheist champions.

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  18. You said "Christopher Hitchens is well aware of just how wrong he was about this too,,,now"

    So as a Christian, you're glad that you believe a man is being tortured simply for not agreeing with you or so that you can be right??? So much for christian love.

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    1. No I'm glad that Christopher finally got what he championed and wanted...existence WITHOUT God. Now, why wouldn't you be happy for him? That seems to me to be an expression of hater and or jealously!

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  19. You said "I am not arguing Islam, Islam is wrong for a number of reasons "

    I didn't ask whether Islam is right or wrong!! I asked whether you as a Christian deserve hell should it turn out to be correct?
    Just answer yes or no.

    And you know I'm not arguing for or against Islam, you're avoiding the question.

    You said "Not all science is repeatable or testable and we've been over this ground before"

    Then it isn't science.

    You said " Deut 22:20-21 this portion only refers to a woman, who when and while engaged to be married, commits sexual acts which brings a shame to her father's house."

    So, this means she deserves to be murdered??? This makes it ok, as opposed to just having sex before marriage. Whether this be the case or not, god is still sanctioning cold blooded murder for things that are arbitrary. And what about Leviticus 21:9 where god orders death by being burned alive for priests daughters who lose their virginity before marriage? Those are black and white statements there's no explaining them away.

    You said "This has nothing to do with what you are talking about. The verses that cover what you are talking about are the verses I pointed to...there is no commitment to death for a woman caught having sex prior to marriage."

    It has everything to do with what I'm talking about. Deut 22:20-21 specifically states 20. But if the thing is true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the young woman, 21. then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has wrought folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house; so you shall purge the evil from the midst of you.

    It's there in black and white, recorded in the Bible that god is ordering that a woman who is found not to be a virgin on her wedding night should be executed by stoning at the door of her fathers house. How can that mean anything other than what it says?

    You said " You, like most unlearned atheists (so far as scriptural matters) try to make a whole case off of wrong info"

    No I'm making a case off of what it actually says in the inerrant word of god! I take stone her to death with stones to mean stone her to death with stones. But, let me guess? I have the "wrong" interpretation. That really means something else.

    You said ".God hardened Pharaoh's heart by his actions"

    Man, it's there in black and white. Exodus 4:21 plainly states "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

    It's right there were god says he will harden Pharoah's heart. You know like mess with his free will. Specifically so that he could then have an excuse to kill every first born child in Egypt. He does it with David as well when he moves David to take a census
    2 Samuel 24:1 and then kills 70,000 innocent israelites for something he made David do in the 1st place and something those other 70,000 people had nothing to do with.

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    1. You are so off base its really unbelievable...Then Big Bang cosmology isn't science? You can't test and or repeat the big bang, all you can do is analyze evidence and run calculations...Also I suppose according to you theories on what science is...that M theory or just about anything that Stephen Hawking says isn't science, because most of what he says can;t be repeated or tests...Is that the path you want to follow? Then YOU have no clue as to what science is.

      As I ALREADY SAID...and further commentary will be deleted from you that broach the issues, Deut, 22:20-21 has nothing to do with a young lady getting caught having sex... it has to do with being a prostitute and doing the things that every Jewish household knew was condemned and did not practice...
      And just like a leader can lead good men to war to loose their lives a leader of the people can lead a nation into turmoil...so the problem with the judgement of the people because of David is not an issue...Obama and other leaders do things everyday that affect all of us, so you are either very immature in your understanding or just simply ignorant of how the world runs....The leaders of the housing loan industry just got millions of folk kicked out of their homes over the last 10 or so years just in case you didn't know...

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  20. You said "Nonetheless, your argument is ineffective as a criticism"

    No it is not, because whether that specific passage sanctions rape or not, god still orders and allows it in other places. Like when god allowed the Israelite troops to keep the young, virgin girls for themselves of course after he ordered them to mass slaughter everyone else. And even if god had a specific law against rape, which he doesn't, that still won't explain away all of the animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, genocide, torture, sanctioning of slavery, ordering of cannibalism, murder for arbitrary things, etc.

    I find it interesting that the worse thing Satan does in scripture is lie and deceive. And he's considered the evil one.

    But not only does the Christian god lie and deceive according to scripture, he commits all of the above and he's considered good! That's a real head scratcher. Lying is relatively benign compared to those acts. I mean, we've all lied at some point, but I think you'd have to search pretty far and wide to find the person who's committed a genocide or 2, simply because they weren't unquestionably obeyed.

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    1. First, captive women were not raped neither was it allowable for the Israelite soldiers to rape them. In actuality, the SCRIPTURE outlines that those women were taken care of especially by being brought in to be civilized and if they did not wish to be a part of Israel or the family that had taken them in they had the RIGHT TO LEAVE AND BE TAKEN CARE OF by the family of the soldier that had brought her in to be a servant. Here is scripture:

      Deut. 21:10- :10-When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11-And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12-Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13-And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her."

      "humbled her" does not means that she was raped, the context is MARRIAGE look at verse 11....

      I've handled the other issues in other threads...I'l not allow you to terrorize the board with more irrational ramblings...you are a piece of work, and evidently can't read either...

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  21. You know deep down inside that animal sacrifice, human sacrifice, genocide, torture, sanctioning of slavery, ordering of cannibalism, murder for arbitrary things, such as picking up sticks on the wrong day of the week, touching the ark, and sending bears to kill children for calling a prophet "baldy" (even if they were middle age men, what had they done to deserved to be ripped apart by bears) and eternal torture for arbitrary things like believing the wrong religion, going to nightclubs, premarital sex, not unquestionably believing the bible is wrong.

    Not only do you think it's wrong, you think it's downright cruel and barbaric. You know you do, because if ANYONE else at anytime did or commanded any of those things, you would have no problem calling them cruel or barbaric. If some other god in some other holy book commanded and sanctioned those things, for the exact same reason you think your god sanctioned them, you would have no problem calling that god cruel or barbaric. If a human dictator sanctioned those things for the same reasons as your god, he's cruel and barbaric.

    But when it's the christian god, the worst atrocity has to somehow be right in some context. It doesn't matter what it is.

    Just what exactly would the christian god have to do for you to see him as any less than all good and the pinnacle of morality?

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    1. FM in my FINAL comment to you in this thread, and if you stray off topic in others I will ban you, because you are just off on nearly everything you assert (a bad argument is ok, I can deal with that, but you are a radical idiot who continues to misconstrue the text and evidently doesn't know what is being said) do you even read this stuff yourself, or are you talking what those other idiots are telling you to say...either way you are embarrassing IF the intent is to communicate and challenge truth...

      Just because the bible records what happened and even if the people of God did what the bible records does not mean that God endorsed it and most of what he did allow he allowed vastly different than you and most radicals set forth...why be so disengenuous? Because you are so chalk full of garbage that you can;t think straight...to you the bible says everything wrong and evil yet those that follow it are the most benefit to society and history ever...Have you stopped to ask why that BECAUSE of God the world is a better place?

      Sorry but the facts speak for themselves...Materialsm fails at every turn and even modern discoveries of science negate a pure materialistic worldview and outlook..Sorry, but you've done nothing to advance your case...

      Later FM!

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